For a full recording of this podcast, visit: [Link]
Welcome to the soft land central podcast, your home for market entry knowledge and resources off land Central is brought to you by soft land partners, an online marketplace to help you find best fit resources for your market entry, find them at softlandpartners.com
Bill : Hi, and welcome to soft land central the home of market entry and today we’re going to talk about culture and understanding as it relates to market entry and clearly a huge topic, it’s very easy to get sort of stuck in the where we grew up and where we live for a long time in terms of how we communicate and relate to people and clearly, there are some differences as we move around the world so we’re privileged to have Lanie Denslow with us from worldwide and worldwide inter intercultural training, I’m going to do that one more time world wise, intercultural Training. Welcome Lanie.
Lanie : Thank you, Bill. It’s a pleasure to be here.
Bill : Great. If nothing else, I’m learning how to say tongue twister so it’s perfect. So let’s, let’s talk about the, you know, kind of getting into our topic here and, you know, we see I mean I think there’s just some amazing opportunities we have as we’re going into markets to relate really well to the, the new market and we see companies that that do it well, but maybe we could talk about the flip side and when you’re, when you see companies that are, are challenged, what are some of the big things that really challenged companies, as they’re entering new markets to relate to their customer base in a way that is thoughtful and and effective.
Lanie : I think the first thing is companies often don’t really think about that aspect. And that’s what trips them up. So, let me tell you a story about a company that got tripped up, this goes back a few years but it illustrates the point, and the company was Walmart, which is very global. But if you look around, you’ll notice that they’re not in continental Europe. So they went into Germany. And then they spend a lot of money, and then they left. And while there were multiple kinds of problems. One of the things always cited was, they didn’t do what I’d call a deep enough dive into understanding the culture and culture, and I’ll talk about this in a minute, is really how we see it as how people behave. So, Walmart, train their people, as if they were coming to San Jose where I live, greet people at the door, pack their bags with their groceries sort of pre COVID AT chat with people, be friendly, and for the Germans. They said don’t touch my food once I put it in my bag. It’s mine. Why put it it, and you don’t touch it, and why are people flirting with me. And they didn’t like it and they didn’t go back. So that’s an example of a big company very sophisticated. It’s easy to make a mistake. And one of the things it’s urgent for people to do is to really step back and think about what might be different. And we, we, everybody, I’m going to talk about it from the American standpoint because I’m an American, and I know the most about our culture, but for everybody, you’re the culture, the world you grow up in, is how you expect it to be every place, it’s, it’s reasonable. And let me take a step back and talk about what I think we, how we could define culture for this conversation. Now it’s not film and it’s not fashion It’s not food, but it’s how people think, what they think is the right way to live their lives to do business. One of the writers about culture said it’s the software of the mind. So you’re not really aware, but you know how you’re supposed to behave, what you’re supposed to do in your life in business. And with that, you have an expectation about how other people are going to behave. And it’s human nature that when they don’t behave the way you expect them to your reaction, unless you really thought about it beforehand is they’re wrong. And they’re beginning your problems. So, it’s about how people believe they’re supposed to behave, and we see it in business in terms of behavior. And that’s what culture is and the context we’re talking about today. So that’s kind of a long answer to a short question but.
Bill : Oh, it was a perfect answer, and it wasn’t necessarily a short question but. So it’s, it’s funny you know sort of as you talk about this. I think about, you know, sort of in a, in a related topic about language, because obviously that’s a partner to culture. And so I have this experience, when I travel. And I’m in a, you know, in a country where I don’t speak the language. And let’s just take this scenario where you know you’re out to dinner, and I do my best to to order food, and when the person who’s caring for me doesn’t understand what I, I’m communicating my recourse is a very ignorant American is to speak louder, thinking, thinking that, that somehow, by just hitting them harder, will have communicated and do you see this kind of thing happen with with cultural challenges where, you know, we’ll just double down on this a little bit, see what, see what happens and and so on but it obviously it’s a it’s a sort of a fool’s errand, I suppose.
Lanie : I think it’s very normal and I don’t think that you or me or Americans in general are different, you know people from around the world have that same reaction is to pop up the volume. So, is there, I think your question is, is there an instinct to stay more strongly with your cultural perspective, whatever that means. So if it means that you think that being on time for meeting beings five minutes early, but you’re in, let’s say Mexico City were being not I was thinking, Latin America, yeah. Yeah, it being five minutes early, doesn’t guarantee that anybody else is going to be there. I, it makes me think of another story of watching an architect at a conference in Mexico City, this is a few years ago, I was there with a client who got so mad because meetings didn’t start right on time, and he thought it was dis personally disrespectful to him clearly and done any cultural work that he decided he would never do business there and packed up and went home. But is it an instinct to double down on your own perspective yes unless you know, unless, because you don’t, if you don’t know that really the basic idea that there are different ways that people do things differently, you interpreted as being against you in some way, and, and the pity of that is that, then you have these disconnects where people pack up and go home if not physically, emotionally, they leave, they leave the relationship. And that’s the heartbreak for me to see that happen.
Bill : Yeah, it will and it certainly, I think maybe we should talk for a few minutes about about empathy because that, you know, that certainly seems like a tool in the process of developing cultural understanding and I suppose there are times when you have done research and we’ll do research, you’ll have, and we’ll talk maybe about sort of the process, that, that helps companies, navigate this but, do you want to kind of share your thoughts about the importance of empathy in terms of adapting to, you know, various cultural norms.
Lanie : So I actually have to say I’ve never thought about it quite with that word in mind, as what I think about is sort of a multi step process that first you have to have to grasp the idea that there. I guess it’s several things that there are going to be differences in how people behave. Because that’s culture is what we see. We see it as behavior. So, there going to be differences that there are reasons that people behave and the way they do, this is nothing random, they believe for some reason that what they’re doing is appropriate. And to be alert to the fact there are differences, and then to start to try to understand what those differences are and why they are, but also at the same time, it’s valuable to think. Alright so they show up at a different definition of maybe they show up 20 minutes late. But is there something else in the environment that I can grab onto that’s maybe similar to something that I think. So a way to find not just differences and get stuck in. Oh, they do it all wrong. It’s so different and I can’t stand this. But at the same time recognize it’s a learning, and that if you are alert to the fact that they’re going to be differences to ask yourself, Are there similarities so is this person who is always late, really a big sports fan, maybe you’re an India and maybe could they teach you a little bit about cricket cuz you’re a really big sports fan, and then looking for that similarity, find some way to cross that barrier to figure out a little bit more about who they are and why they are. It’s a tricky balance, but I think that’s part of it and maybe empathy is, in the sense of recognizing that there are different ways to approach things, how to be efficient in business, how to get things done, how to show respect, one big issue is how do we build relationships. For most of the world. You know this, it takes a lot of time and energy to build a relationship before you can do business. Trade Commissioner Barcelona said to me, if you could just get your clients to have a proper lunch and a conversation instead of a sandwich in a conference room with a PowerPoint. They do a lot more business. So, is there a way to understand. There’s the longer build the relationship before the business, and how does that work with the American attitude of, let’s do the business and we’ll get to know you while we work together. Once you can really get your head around that there are two ways to do it, you can start to see if there are some compromises that can be worked out. And I think maybe that’s as close to the idea of empathy and understanding that it’s going to be different and you can still be feel respected.
Bill : Oh that makes so much sense. It was funny that you were talking about lunch in Barcelona I was thinking about lunch in Tokyo, which is about five minutes long, dinner on the other hand is three hours but but lunches lunches on the way to something,
Lanie : and lunch is much in the news right now because the friendship just decided that it’s okay in the time of the pandemic that you could eat at your desk. Even when I was there when I was working, I worked there for a year. That was scandalous it wasn’t allowed it was completely wrong and only in the last few months have they allowed that that was okay, so like, you know, eating hours and patterns of eating, and whether you spend time three hours over dinner, or do you do sort of the New York three courses in 45 minutes, and their stories about Chinese tourists when the first groups were going to France, and that tour people would arrange a meal at a nice French restaurant. And about halfway through most of the Chinese people would leave because they weren’t accustomed to having multiple courses served over a period of time, and it just didn’t work for them. There’s so much around meals that that can be such a powerful way to come together, but if you don’t understand, it can be challenging.
Bill : So let’s maybe talk about the kind of bring the theory to practice and so if I were a company looking to, let’s say for example come into the United States. What are some of the things that I should do before I enter. And then, you know what sort of the process, would you suggest in terms of how do we optimize our ability to adjust to new the new culture.
Lanie : Well they’re all the legal and accounting. Right. All the rules, but coming into a new culture, I think it’s helpful if you do some research, you first of all figure out that it’s going to be different. You do some research, there’s lots of material there, consultants, like me, they’re online ways. There are embassies and consulates that can help you, there are business associations so whatever your industry is there’s likely to be an association that you can contact, there are double named Chambers of Commerce to Chinese American they’ll French, American in almost every city that are a great source of support and information. And I think one of the most important things is to bring the idea of being curious about finding out what’s going to be different, and coming into the United States, you know, it’s as simple as people have their hard time getting their heads around how physically big the places
Bill : I was gonna say is there one United States in terms of how you know going into Texas would be different than going to California, I believe, then going to say it’s in terms of. So there certainly subtleties, not I, yeah, not
Lanie : the language, although we talk about everybody speaks English, as you go across the country, it sounds very different. There are words that show up in one place and not another. I grew up part of my life in Nashville and 1000 years later I still say sir and ma’am, which I learned there. So, yes, the regional differences. I think I told you I have co authored a book called working with Americans, and I did a lot of interviews with people from all over the world and one, an attorney from Slovenia I talk about the fact that the rhythm of even getting an appointment in New York is different than getting an appointment in California. So one of the things that’s helpful to find is somebody who can be an informal mentor, in a way, and this would be true coming into the United States, or going out is wherever you end up that’s new to you if you can find somebody who could be a coach, and answer some of those questions and give you some tips, it’s always valuable.
Bill : Yeah, I’ve heard that the term translator used in that role, not the language translator but the idea that you can see, see the things that you’re missing through someone else’s eyes. Yeah, I was even it was you were talking about California and New York. I was even thinking gosh, even between southern and northern California, you know, considerably different customs and, and, and so on. So, you know it’s really I think very easy to think about the effect or adjustments a company might need to make from its public presence from us, a sales and marketing standpoint, whether it’s, you know, sort of how the salespeople operate or, you know the expectations they have, and so on. And also the human resource side so how do we treat our employees, how do we recruit and all those kinds of areas of the business, but what other parts of the business would culture of cultural understanding and adaptation be important.
Lanie : Every bit of your people relationships, it’s all its customers. Well, it’s internal it’s internal so I did a project with a company based in New Jersey, and they brought some their people in from New York, from Poland, Switzerland, France, someplace else into New Jersey, and they wanted to do a session about developing a global mindset so there’d be some common sharing, understanding, and we did a little exercise about how long does it take to respond to an email. And at the end we did breakout sessions. You know all that stuff. It was really a lively terrific group, and at the ends, fellow from France and so I suppose it means that, taking a week to answer an email is too long, and there was just the room just fell apart laughing at that point, which actually was a great outcome because once you could share a laugh about something you can talk about, but culture is all about, if business is all about people coming together to try to achieve some common goal, entering a country selling a lot of stuff, whatever that might be. Then people need to know how to engage with each other, and it doesn’t matter whether it’s your call center, or your sales staff, or the people who are developing coding for your next app. And so, cultural understanding, awareness training, translating is essential to have an effective teams at every level.
Bill : Hmm, well it’s really, really interesting. So one of the things I think about as you were talking is, you know, we both introduce people probably quite often and it’s always interesting to me and lime introducing quite often or, you know, not just the US but in other countries as well, but the speed at which people reply to introductions. You were talking about the email follow up. But yeah, I mean it’s a there’s such huge variations and I mean there are some people that it’s literally the emails in their inbox for probably a minute and then boom, right on it and then others it may be days, or never. And so it seems like we’re communicating, as we’re doing that in terms of whether it’s important to us and I think in, at least my hypothesis is in some cultures, you know, for whatever reason people wait for the other person to, to acknowledge the introduction before they respond and. But anyway, it just it’s always interesting to me to see what happens are.
Lanie : Well, in some places, people aren’t going to respond rapidly if at all, if they don’t really already know the person who’s writing to that. There are a lot of places where you don’t get to do business, unless you’re introduced by a trusted person who can serve as making the official introduction for you. So sometimes people just don’t respond. And because they don’t know really who you are, you know, it’s a very American thing of, oh well we don’t know who you are exactly but what you have to talk about is interesting, so let’s try and at least have a conversation because maybe that next big idea rests with you but that’s, that’s not the norm everywhere.
And today, I think people are just busy and have full inboxes and I’ve learned that when I don’t get an answer sometimes maybe I need to pick up the phone, a spam filter I’ve decided not to be mad, the first time that the spam filter may have prevented them from even seeing my message which I think is the most important thing ever.
Bill : I like that. No, the phone is way under us so I totally agree. And better than zoom. So, so let’s, let’s talk about, you know you’ve, you’ve worked with many companies over the years and I’m sure there’s a continuum of those that sort of got it, and, and had an exercise to very good process and plan and others that may not have been quite as strong, but what do you think about the attributes of the companies that that adapted and modified their practices to the new culture. What were some of the things that you observed that was common between those companies in terms of their approach and, you know, in any respect.
Lanie : Well, I’d say that the first thing is people be interested in this whole idea that it’s going to be different. And a lot of my work is the introduction of the idea of cultural differences and getting that set for individuals and companies, more than long term follow through. So, but I, I think, the chairman of IK is said at one point, the farther we go from home, the more we have to take the time to learn about the other culture. And I think companies who have some form of that idea, are the ones who are the most successful over the long term, that they recognize it, that if it starts from the top, that this is an important issue if they provide training for their come their people. And one of the things that I think is considered or has been successful over the years, is the idea of bringing people together, not doing off site meetings, but bringing people from either to the either the regional center, or to the headquarters so that they could see each other we see each other on zoom but it’s not the same, that people can really see each other’s work environment, and that helps people understand each other. And I’d say it’s just a long term commitment.
Bill : I really love. Oh, I am sorry
no I was just gonna say I love the notion that it has to be. It’s a leadership thing it’s, it starts with the leadership committing to the process of developing the into the culture that exists that in the in the markets that are expanding to I think that’s a, that’s so critical.
Lanie : Yes, it always is, what is the example from the leadership that’s going to filter through the company, and where they put their resources, and it helps human resources, implement, training, and if they have the full support of the senior leadership,
Bill : makes a lot of sense. So, you’ve taken us on an incredible journey and I think it’s probably appropriate that we share with folks who you are and a little bit about worldwise intercultural training, do you want to share a little bit of your background and what you do for companies today.
Lanie : So I came to this as maybe a third career. I’m one of those lucky people who’s had a chance to do a number of things. And at one point, I was in the real estate business and decided I needed to broaden my experience and the business was becoming international so I took myself off to grad school to get a Masters of international business and MBA and got captured stunned by this whole area of cultural differences and the impact in business. And so I tell my friends I set out to change the world because I could see that this was an impediment a barrier to people being able to do business and it was so unnecessary. With a little understanding teams could function so well. And over the years, I took a little detour and I was the Director of International Affairs for the Fashion Institute of Design and Merchandising did a lot of international work and work with Consular Corps trade people, and at the same time developed a practice of presentations and some coaching around this whole idea of cultural differences, and that’s about five years ago I decided to full time spend my energy doing that which I am doing now with interestingly enough, a number of law firms, some accounting firms who are part of global networks, and so it isn’t just their clients that are from other parts of the world it’s often colleagues. And that’s been a really satisfying interesting project I’ve learned a lot, which is always for me a good thing. So I offer customized training, whether it’s a 45 minutes of a big short overview, our full day session by developing a global mindset. The individual coaching 20 minute trip to China why to say yes to dinner when you want to go to bed. And if you’re going, I worked with an attorney who was going to Saudi Arabia, and he came back and said the most useful thing I’d said out of everything, is that if he was working with a woman, Let her expand her hand to shake hands. To make the first gesture and he said, some uncut, what would have been uncomfortable moments, and I love it all. I love it all. So I’ve written two books had the two books published one called What to know before worldwise what to know before you go. Oh, aimed at Americans, knew their business, and then just had the second edition of working with Americans come out. I think I told you before the timing wasn’t perfect, at the end of 2019 but it’s beginning to get legs again. And with my co author, we thought it really just get to explain the behaviors of Americans how things because it’s so different to the rest of the world. And if we could explain it in a way that was easy for people to understand, it would be easier for people to make the kind of build that build their business together with their American colleagues. That’s a short, long answer. That’s what I do.
Bill : That’s fantastic. So you mentioned professional practice firms other other types of companies and organizations that you typically work with.
Lanie : I have worked with the trucking company pharmaceutical company. I’ve done multiple programs for different organizations. I just did a presentation for the forensic expert witness Association, who knows something like that existed such interesting people, and we really focused on one small slice of cultural difference, and that was nonverbal communication. So everything I do is customized for the client. And every time I have a chance to learn quite a bit, and I have to say that really been our learning from everybody who’s a member, and having a chance to engage has really been a great experience for me.
Bill : Well, I wish I wish I knew before I had taken several trips to the Middle East where I, of course, reached out my hand to shake every woman, which, as you know, three quarters of the time, don’t reach back so it’s it’s such a it’s such a hard habit to break you have to be so attentive to it and I come standpoint is or the viewpoint were here, if you shook hands with a man and but didn’t offer it to a woman, it would be insulting. So it, it’s, it’s a very difficult adjustment for my lizard brain.
Lanie : Yeah, it’s hard for everybody, and you know it’s those small things that can make a difference in just being comfortable beginning that relationship. So, yeah, my goal is to make it easier for people to engage with each other.
Bill : Yeah, then you certainly don’t want to feel like you’re putting somebody in an uncomfortable place or, or in any way insulting them so yeah no, it’s always one of those things you walk away from and go, I should have I should have done better there. But, well, thank you, lady. This was so fantastic, so many great tips. Is there anything sort of as we close up that you want to make sure people know about or any last words of wisdom.
Lanie : I would say that I would encourage people, as they enter new countries new places to bring with them their curiosity, go in looking to see what might be different or similar, and how you can build out of that, because it’s the relationship that always makes the difference. And don’t be afraid or feel uncomfortable asking for help, looking for that mentor or translator who can help you over the rough spots. But, be curious, and you’ll find really good things.
Bill : That’s awesome. Right, yeah. I think that’s such wonderful advice and I know our audience will gain a lot out of it. So we’re gonna put your contact info, in, in the description down below. Is there a favorite way for people to reach you, email, or LinkedIn What do you prefer
Lanie : email, LinkedIn, text me, call me smoke signals, anything, old fashioned letter with a stamp on. Well we know you like the phone so they could call you. Yeah.
Bill : Brilliant, well to Lanie thank you to our audience, please make sure you like and subscribe and that way you stay up to date with all the great content we have coming out so thank you again lady I hope you have a great weekend and I will see. See you very soon I’m sure.
Lanie : Okay, bye bye.
Bill : Cheers, bye.